Shock Leader Material

[trowpa]

Ok - this might have been covered before and I just couldn't find it on a search. If so, just politely send me the link and we'll leave it at that, but if not....

I've decided I'd like to try using a shock leader - I've tried to keep it simple and reduce the number of knots, but it seems like that 17lb line gets nicked and abraided far too easily by the fishfinder, dogfish, sand, etc etc and I end up snapping off on a cast if I don't regularly cut off a few feet and retie.

I'd like to hear opinions on what material works well with 17lb suffix tritanium plus - for those using this brand line, what shock leaders have proved reliable for them? (I've read that some lines are compatable more than others for knot strength etc). Shoud I stay with suffix brand - tritanium in 40lb or 50lb(is it available)? Should I bother with any of the special "shock leader" products, or are these just plain mono repackaged for a higher price? Or does anyone bother using flourocarbon shock leaders? (Useless expense???) Is it best to go with something that has more stretch to absorb the shock? or do you go with less stretch to preserve the energy of the cast and load the rod better?

Just some pointers on material (and knots too - if you found one that is small, stong, easy to tie, and reliable).

Main reason I haven't used a shock leader up to this point is that I am afraid of adding another knot into the equation that could fail as well as hang up on the spool or guides while casting.

Thanks in advance.

[Sam]

Good question. From what I understand, the rule of thumb is twice the mono line strength. 20lb mian line/40lb shock leader. My shock leader usualy wraps around the spool 3 times before casting. I use the blood knot, but Coop uses a different kind of knot. Hope this helps and I also hope someone knows a little more about braid because I am interested in that as well.

[Steve]

I've always kept it simple. I attach a snap swivel to my running line and a 3-5' section of 80# tied to it with the FF.
Then I do a barrel swivel with my rig at the end.

[Charkbait]

I use no shock leader, had no breaks in the surf only on 10lb freshwater rods in the bay casting too much weight. If your rod is too stiff for your line it will probalby cause this. My surf rods are very flexy and I've casted up to 13oz on 14 lb line with them but it's spinning gear.

[trowpa]

I think you are right - when the line is in good condition - I think i only have break offs casting when the line already was weakened/nicked for whatever reason - the cast will expose that weakness immediately with a snap :( maybe Steve's suggestion of no shock leader, but a protective lenght of 80 lb for the FF to ride on / absorb any dogfish skin rubs, sand abrasion, etc would do fine? I guess the advantages of this is that there is no knot to hang on the spool/guides as it is always out of the rod tip, but the disadvantage is its not a "true shock leader" for casting (you don't get the real protection - you're still only at the strength of 17lb, but like you said, its probably enough in most casting situations), you don't have the protection in the wash fighting a big fish, and you still have at least one, maybe two (if using a swivel) more knots in the equation....

Hmmm lots to think about...keep it comming

[Coop]

if you are casting more than 4 ozs, I would definitely recomend using a shock leader of about 15' of 40lb line,,,when you start tossing 10ozs, I would recomend 50lb shock leader,,,you can even go longer on the leader,,,I am always snipping some off and retyng my knot at my rig,,,your fish finder can wear out the line, so retying is necessary,,,as far as knots, I use a loop knot tied from the main line, connected with the no name knot from the shock leader,,,very strong, when I get home, I'll post more about the loop knot,,,my loop knot (not sure what its called but got it out of a book of fishing knots) is a little different from what others use but I find it to be very small and only takes 30 secs or less to tie both knots,,,never had one break and stays strong for a long period of time,,,bimini twist is anopther loop knot but can be hard to tie and there is another one, but this one I use is strong, small, easy and quick to tie.

I just bought a rod that casts best with 4 oz's, and I do not use a shock leader,,,this allows to maximize distance and can throw it a mile without the knots going through the guides, but I do use a 4' section of 40lb leader so the ff slides along,,,I can also grab the 4' section when the fish is on the beach still trying to squirm away.

I'll post more when I get home on the knot system when I get home.

[Sam]

[quote user="Steve" post="6446"]I've always kept it simple. I attach a snap swivel to my running line and a 3-5' section of 80# tied to it with the FF.
Then I do a barrel swivel with my rig at the end.[/quote]

Yes, but what about the shock leader? :wink:

[trowpa]

Thanks Coop - thats good info - So far - it seems like I use 5 or 6 oz most of my times out and the 6 and 8 oz is what makes me nervous to go "shock-less". I think though even if I am casting 4 oz and don't use a full shock leader of 15-20', a short section of beefier mono will help with that wear. Looking forward to seeing the knots you use (30 seconds and no failures sounds good to me!)

What type of main line and shock do you use (i.e. brand and type) I still think that sometimes a compatable set of lines play a role in knot strength as some pairings might either slip or cut into each other more than others. Want to be sure if I try this I get something that's proven compatable tied with the suffix tri.

[eklutna]

I have research the issue and read many articles about shock leader size. I also read a engineering study of the forces placed on the shock leader during a cast. I am not a expert but heed the advice and warnings of people with lots of experience. This is why I use ten pounds of leader strength for every ounce of sinker. On my eight and bait rod I use eighty pound Cajun leader. I use 20 pound ande and tie the two together with a standard leader knot. Some might say that forty is good enough for a eight ounce sinker. My guess is the person casting is not using advanced casting methods like the pendulum cast and this is why no incident has happened yet. I bet a tournament level castor could separate an eight ounce sinker from the 40 pound leader during a pendulum cast. I think this would be especially true after the leader gets normal abrasion from fishing the surf. I have seen the engineering numbers and it makes sense to use ten pounds of leader strength for each ounce of sinker.

It really doesn’t hurt you casting distance to use eighty pound line with a standard leader knot on a conventional reel. I bet most would not notice the difference on a spinner. You get the great advantage of the abrasion resistance of the larger line that might make the difference between getting bit off or landing the Jack fish. Larger line is much easier on the hands when pulling fish over a sea wall. Just my two cents.

[Pier_man0909]

I use 20 lb. suffix usually, I am trying out a newer line now called "cuda" and I like it so far. The only place I have seen it is at red drum tackle in buxton. this is the line they reccomend and the guys and girl at the shop reccomend it over suffix. if the people at red drum tackle reccomend it, it has to be good. it was like $42 for a 1 lb. spool so it is about the same price.So far I like it, it is more limp than suffix. little memory in the line is good when surfcasting (at least I like it). It is also supposed to be more abrasion resistant than suffix. the only drawback is that it is a little thicker than suffix, but it doesn't make that dramatic of a change in your line capacity. because it is thicker, it also increases the drag of the line in the water which is good and bad. might take 1 more ounce to hold, but will wear out a big fish quicker. when I am on the beach you can check it out.

for shock leader. I just use like 50-60 lb. trilene, unless I am sharking and then I use 80-100lb. just for the abrasion resistance. I use the albright knot, which is hard for me to tie when I am in a really big hurry but I guess every knot is. the albright works great on 2 lines of different diameters like 20 to 50. I have used tapered leaders that have a high strength of 70 but taper down to like 18 and for those I use the uni to uni knot. that is the best knot if the lines are close in diameter.

[Coop]

I am an extremely hard caster and 40lb is plenty sufficient with 6oz and even 8oz weight,,,when you go to 10 and up, I would recomend 50lb which seems to me plenty of shocker,,,the problem with heavier leader is a larger knot,,,the larger knot tends to grab on the guides and reduce casting distance which is my main goal, especially for reds,,,distance matters when those reds are around,,,if your casting 10 oz, you should use 100lb line?,,,seems very excessive to me and overkill under normal fishing conditions.

I think a guy name Holden devised every 10lbs per ozs,,,I think very true if you are power casting 5ozs of lead in tournaments but not really necessary in normal fishing conditions.

[trowpa]

I've read those articles that say 10lb for each oz as well - and also read it as what you'd need to be safe when casting maximum distance with advanced techniques. Fortunatley (for the line breaking) and unfortunately (for my distance casting ability) I haven't developed any "advanced techniques" yet - I'm just lucky to get it out a decent distance, roughly where I want it, without the bait flinging off or the rig getting tangled :mrgreen:

But I do hope/expect that my technique will improve/develop and that i'd eventually make a move toward conventional gear for at least some conditions(use all spinning right now).

NO matter how you slice it, a 40 lb shock is still gonna be safer than what I do now - tie the rig right to my 17lb main line. I want to start with trying some 40lb as that will "ease" me into shock leaders and allow for the smallest knot yet give me some of the protective advantages (even if its not as "foolproof as 50 or 80lb would be).

So now if I decide to start with 40lb, where can I get 40lb line? I searched cabela's site (closest store to me) and they seem to only go to 30lb for tritanium plus (here)- unless I use the "invisiline" flourocarbon $$$$... Coop - what brand mono you use for your 40lb/50lb?

[eklutna]

I do not want to be disrespectful to anyone. I have always tried to learn by finding the most experienced people, getting the best results and doing what they do. I have heard Neil Mackello say 10 pounds of leader per ounce of lead. I read Arra's book and he says the same. On the Florida surf fishing forum Gowge says the same. Here are three very experienced castors with high levels of achievements that all state that you should use ten pounds of leader for each ounce of sinker. I do use One hundred pound line on my leaders at times. The Ande leader that I use is 1mm in thickness. The 80 pound Cajun Leader is 1.07mm thick. With the standard leader knot I can barely hear the knot go through the guides. I have had many people tell me that I am getting good distance with my casts. Yes I am sure I can get a little better but my gut tells me to err on the side of caution.

[eklutna]

[quote user="trowpa" post="6479"]I've read those articles that say 10lb for each oz as well - and also read it as what you'd need to be safe when casting maximum distance with advanced techniques. Fortunatley (for the line breaking) and unfortunately (for my distance casting ability) I haven't developed any "advanced techniques" yet - I'm just lucky to get it out a decent distance, roughly where I want it, without the bait flinging off or the rig getting tangled :mrgreen:

But I do hope/expect that my technique will improve/develop and that i'd eventually make a move toward conventional gear for at least some conditions(use all spinning right now).

NO matter how you slice it, a 40 lb shock is still gonna be safer than what I do now - tie the rig right to my 17lb main line. I want to start with trying some 40lb as that will "ease" me into shock leaders and allow for the smallest knot yet give me some of the protective advantages (even if its not as "foolproof as 50 or 80lb would be).

So now if I decide to start with 40lb, where can I get 40lb line? I searched cabela's site (closest store to me) and they seem to only go to 30lb for tritanium plus (here)- unless I use the "invisiline" flourocarbon $$$$... Coop - what brand mono you use for your 40lb/50lb?[/quote]

There are several routs you can go. First you can buy a wrist spool of Ande leader material. One spool of 50yds will cost about five dollars. Suffix makes wrist spools of 115 yds for about 14 bucks. If you are using a four ounce sinker you will need forty pound leader. Wrist spools are available every where. One spool will create about six leaders.

You can also use a tapered leader. These are only available from a internet store in England called veals. Using the same technology used for making fly casting leaders some one made a tapered leader for surf casting. The leader is seventy pound for about twenty feet and the final five feet tapers down to 17 pound test. You can use a blood knot or a nail to nail to connect you main line to the leader. I use them on my five ounce rods. Five come in a roll and they cost seven dollars.

[Sam]

[quote user="Coop" post="6476"]I am an extremely hard caster and 40lb is plenty sufficient with 6oz and even 8oz weight,,,when you go to 10 and up, I would recomend 50lb which seems to me plenty of shocker,,,the problem with heavier leader is a larger knot,,,the larger knot tends to grab on the guides and reduce casting distance which is my main goal, especially for reds,,,distance matters when those reds are around,,,if your casting 10 oz, you should use 100lb line?,,,seems very excessive to me and overkill under normal fishing conditions.

I think a guy name Holden devised every 10lbs per ozs,,,I think very true if you are power casting 5ozs of lead in tournaments but not really necessary in normal fishing conditions.[/quote]

:up: